The Virtual Coffeehouse

In class Tuesday, we talked about how India is romanticized in Kim, which is in keeping with how the British viewed India as simultaneously fascinating and fundamentally different from them. This makes India into sort of a "Wonderland" in itself, an exotic and curious land with a strange cast of characters. Like Alice, Kim interacts with his environment as though it is a fantasy land and he is on an adventure.

Alice comes into Wonderland with her own set of ideas and assumptions about how people should behave and finds that Wonderland is different than the world she comes from. Although Kim has always lived in India, his Irish heritage sets him apart from everyone else and, according to Kipling, influences how he acts. An example of this is the telling passage, "where a native would have lain down, Kim's white blood set him upon his feet" (94). Because Kim comes from a different background than the Indians, he reacts to things as differently as Alice reacts to things in Wonderland. The difference is that Wonderland wasn't a real place, whereas India is, so Kipling turning India into a sort of Wonderland reveals the mindset of people in favor of imperialism.

I agree with Amanda, however, as we also talked about in class, the reader experiences Kim's adventures, and India through Kim's eyes. Therefore, we almost become Kim so our thoughts and ideas are present in the adventure. Just as Alice imposes her ideas on Wonderland, we as the reader impose our preconceived ideas on India through Kim.

I agree with both of the previous posts. While reading the book, I didn't really think about how it compares to the Alice books at all, until this post and when I started thinking about it more. It is quite interesting that they are a lot alike. Alice is thrown into an unknown Wonderland, that is completely make-believe. But she knows the difference between right and wrong, and she knows how people are suppose to be behave, and evertything is quite the opposite in Wonderland. On the other hand, we do experience the actions, thoughts and experiences first-hand through Kim in the novel. He is learning about the world around him, and about Indian culture throughout the story. Alice and Kim both learn many new things about themselves and about the world around them in these two stories, but in different ways.

I also agree with the above posts, particularly with Amanda H's discussion about Kim's familiarity with but also difference from his homeland. It's important to remember that unlike Alice, Kim is able to morph his behavior to fit in in almost every aspect of India while she could never quite figure out the system of adapting to Wonderland. However, both characters are exploring and finding new aspects of their surroundings that they were not aware of before and that they had never encountered previously. Kim's adventure down the Big Road is one example of this - although he has so much knowledge of Indian life he is still fascinated by most of what he encounters along the way.
Finally, Kim's ability to transform into whatever character the current situation requires seems almost magical at times and could be compared to the transformations that Alice went through and the roles into which she was put by the other characters when she was present in their company (for example; the White Rabbit's maid, a babysitter for the Dutchess' baby, a cricket player for the Queen of Hearts, or even a snake near the bird's nest).

The most obvious simlarity between Alice and Kim is that they are both in the midst of an adventure in their life - however these adventures are as different as can be. Alice is experiencing a magical make believe world, as Kim experiences how imperialism has impacted the world in which he lives in. As a result of these adventures and journeys, the characters have changed a bit because of the experiences they've had, and the people they've met.

I agree with everything, especially what Melissa said above. Both of the worlds that Alice and Kim are in, whether make believe or real, help Kim and Alice to experience new things and to learn new things about the world, others, and especially themselves. Though both Kim and Alice's adventures are extremely different, they both have changed and grown up in a way, however, both completely different.

I too agree with previous posts. However, Alice was in a word filled with adults but still was a child. I feel as though Kim, is placed in an adult role...he has immese pressure on him to perfom in certain ways. Alice's world is much more imagined and fantastical... Even though India, is romanticized (as per our class disscussion), I still feel that Kim, is placed in more serious roles.

I agree with the posts that have been made and would like to add that Kim is depicted as someone who acts as a bridge between worlds. Initially we are informed that Kim's nickname is "Little friend of all the World" because he is able to communicate with all kinds of people in India. This reminds me of Alice's ability to bridge the logic and language of her world with that she finds in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass. She understands that in addressing different people she must use different strategies of communication, much like Kim's ability to be a "friend" to all casts and people he comes across.

Another thing to look at is all the people that im meets on the road. I feel like for Alice the "people" she met were obviously a huge part of her journey and what she learned, in particular the caterpillar and the Cheshire cat, to name two. For Kim, I think the Tibetan lama is one such character for Kim.

And that rings true to the experience that we have all had on the "adventure" of growing up: there are a few adults and friends who have shaped us and made a difference in our lives. Though Kim and Alice are in different realms, so to speak, there is that major similarity to consider.

And, by default, I agree with most of the previous comments. I feel like it's necessary to add that, if only to make my post look longer. (just kidding...)

I really like the phrasing of the discussion thread, "India as Wonderland." I hadn't previously thought of the connection between the Alice books and Kim but now that I am I can see one way in which the two are related:

I personally had difficulty getting into the story of Kim, mostly because of the abundant links to the endnotes in Chapter I. It seems like right when I was getting a full thought of Kipling's I needed to turn to the back of the book to find out what a word or phrase meant, and in the process, lost what Kipling was saying/describing. When texts are like this and editors decide to add so many endnotes (instead of footnotes or other ways of citation) I very soon felt estranged from the text. This was a difficult read because it's not set in the traditional "west."

On the other hand, the Alice books also were a bit estranging because the rules in Wonderland or through the looking are different from what they are (running keeps you in the same place instead of letting you travel, etc.) but the structure of the footnotes made Alice's adventures easier to understand than Kim's.

Both books had to do with adventures, but setting is so crucial in being able to understand them on their own.

I agree with the previous posts that that India does represent a sort of Wonderland, but of course this wonderland is real. Kipling's description and idealization (which was often unintentionally racist) of India seemed like a white guy trying to describe a location (India) to other whites (Kipling's reader) that was just as exotic as Wonderland.

Of course then there is the fact both are a commentary of growing up, as both Kim and Alice find themselves confronted with the question of "Who am I?", except Alice of course faces the pressure of acting like a woman, while Kim has the responsibility of acting like "the white man" carrying the White Man's burden.

This is a response to Theresa's post. I do agree that he is placed in many situations that are much more serious than Alice was ever exposed to but then again every issue that is brought up in Alice that is similar to serious issues in Kim are magnified because this is Kim's real life and the choices he makes will have an impact on him, while Alice's choices or mistakes won't because she will just wake out of her dream. I thought about this when reading Chapter 5 when Kim is accused of being a theif. This situation could have had grave consequences for him but his Irish identity ends up saving him.

I agree with pretty much all that has been said thus far, particularly by Amanda H. and Michelle S. Both Kim and Alice are on adventures which unquestionably have huge impacts on their life as well as the their understanding of the worlds that surround them. Both books are reflections of society and the expectations it placed on those individuals within that society. As Dan pointed out in his post, Alice is struggling to be a lady while Kim is struggling with being a "white man". Because I'm clearly being repetitive...I'm going to leave it at that

Both Kim and Alice seem to suffer from some sort of estrangment because of their differences. Although each do what they can to blend into their enviornments they are essentially different and this creates for them an isolation. Kim does experience further exceptance than Alice does but both are inherently separated. Neither are in their natural surroundings and it is shown throughout the narratives.

I am sorry for anything i repeat that others might have said in previous posts maybe great minds really do think alike It seems as if Alice and Kim both are thrown into this type of adventure and world of fantasy in Alice's case and a world of identity and questioning who they really are. It seems so weird how closely these two are related when you really think about it. It seems as if Alice is in a more wonderland aspect where there really are not many stipulations and guidance but it seems that Kim has more guideness along his world of adventure and learning about his surroundings. Alice seemed to have known more about what was going on and Kim is still curious in his mind about what is surrounding and it seems so coincident that both are looking for their identity. And yes of course i could sit here and add all the good stuff my friends have already posted but i think you get the point since they already mentioned them in previous posts. See ya all tomorrow